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	<title>Comments on: Character Progression in Star Wars: The Old Republic</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.professorbeej.com/2009/06/star-wars-old-republic-argument-for.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.professorbeej.com/2009/06/star-wars-old-republic-argument-for.html</link>
	<description>Reading Pop Culture Like an English Teacher</description>
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		<title>By: J.Ayers</title>
		<link>http://www.professorbeej.com/2009/06/star-wars-old-republic-argument-for.html/comment-page-1#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>J.Ayers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:30:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://professorbeej.com/2009/06/character-progression-in-star-wars-the-old-republic.html#comment-34</guid>
		<description>@toelSU: I think what it is, is it&#039;s not the logic of &quot;play more, get more&quot; that is the issue, it is the amount of advantage that is the problem. An example being that 4x the time, must mean an exact 4x the power. Yes if you put in more &quot;work&quot; then you should have more to show than someone who doesn&#039;t. But when it starts to (greatly) affect the game, and your aspect on the game, then there is an issue. Perhaps only a slight differential in the gameplay would be better. Or even some sort of trophy or access that doesn&#039;t create a differential in gameplay power, but just gameplay experience, such as maybe a title that gives access to different sets of quests. In a Star Wars universe, just getting a quest to do the &quot;Kessel Run&quot; would be enough of a reward for me! It doesn&#039;t even have to give a reward, just a title that says I actually got to do the Kessel Run. Seriously, how badass would that be? Or perhaps just different skins of already existing armor (ala Guild Wars). In nerd culture, sometimes it&#039;s only the different &quot;style&quot; of armor that grants the awe of other players, just because the other players know how hard it is to get that certain skin. There are plenty of viable options to allow for gameplay that goes beyond the basic &quot;more play, more power&quot; structure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@toelSU: I think what it is, is it&#39;s not the logic of &quot;play more, get more&quot; that is the issue, it is the amount of advantage that is the problem. An example being that 4x the time, must mean an exact 4x the power. Yes if you put in more &quot;work&quot; then you should have more to show than someone who doesn&#39;t. But when it starts to (greatly) affect the game, and your aspect on the game, then there is an issue. Perhaps only a slight differential in the gameplay would be better. Or even some sort of trophy or access that doesn&#39;t create a differential in gameplay power, but just gameplay experience, such as maybe a title that gives access to different sets of quests. In a Star Wars universe, just getting a quest to do the &quot;Kessel Run&quot; would be enough of a reward for me! It doesn&#39;t even have to give a reward, just a title that says I actually got to do the Kessel Run. Seriously, how badass would that be? Or perhaps just different skins of already existing armor (ala Guild Wars). In nerd culture, sometimes it&#39;s only the different &quot;style&quot; of armor that grants the awe of other players, just because the other players know how hard it is to get that certain skin. There are plenty of viable options to allow for gameplay that goes beyond the basic &quot;more play, more power&quot; structure.</p>
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		<title>By: gordon</title>
		<link>http://www.professorbeej.com/2009/06/star-wars-old-republic-argument-for.html/comment-page-1#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 19:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://professorbeej.com/2009/06/character-progression-in-star-wars-the-old-republic.html#comment-29</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to see an alternative to the standard level system to but I doubt it will happen. It&#039;s just too risky from the developers point of view and previous games which have used it (i.e. SW:G) haven&#039;t fair well.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&#039;m really looking forward to SW:TOR but the cynic in me says it will be similar to every other MMORPG out there. Not a bad thing indeed but nothing revolutionary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;d like to see an alternative to the standard level system to but I doubt it will happen. It&#39;s just too risky from the developers point of view and previous games which have used it (i.e. SW:G) haven&#39;t fair well.</p>
<p>I&#39;m really looking forward to SW:TOR but the cynic in me says it will be similar to every other MMORPG out there. Not a bad thing indeed but nothing revolutionary.</p>
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		<title>By: Xash</title>
		<link>http://www.professorbeej.com/2009/06/star-wars-old-republic-argument-for.html/comment-page-1#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>Xash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 19:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://professorbeej.com/2009/06/character-progression-in-star-wars-the-old-republic.html#comment-28</guid>
		<description>Interesting Read Beej, Thanks for pointing it out to me, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&#039;m a veteran of UO myself and I agree with you that skill based games are inherently more interesting then a gear or level based one. However it also presents some issues that are difficult to address and hence why Developers are likely to avoid producing said games.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The first is ultimate problem is balance. You may or may not be aware but when City of Heroes was originally in development, Cryptic its developers had intended to allow the players to choose any primary power / secondary power combination they wanted. However some combinations as is always the case provided much greater synergy and thus, a more powerful character. They eventually settled on their current system of &quot;classes&quot; where you are say a ranged dps, you can choose from say Fire, Energy Ice and so on blasts. That way, they only need to balance say 4 or 5 things against each other, as apposed to 20+&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Then you&#039;ve got UO, where even if there where not classes you basically had classes in as that there where a set number of effective skill combination, and you could only really deviate one skill maybe to remain effective.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The second problem, and just as big in the players and developers eyes is content. If your players aren&#039;t stuck in a virtual arms race of equipment needing that causes them to run Molten Core, BWL, AQ40 and Naxx for  4 hours a day 4 days a week for over a year just to maximize their character, What exactly ARE they going to do. SWG and UO aside MMO&#039;s are designed with very little freedom and variety. Adding Variety takes time, time is money so its easier to make a game where all you do is raid, and to keep you raiding the same content they dangle the gear in front of your face.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Moving onto the subject of Player Time VS Power. You argue that a Person who plays 4 times as much as you shouldn&#039;t be 4 times as powerful as you. I agree with this, I feel sometimes people forget an actual benefit of playing more is that you become physically better at playing the game. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thus even if you had the same character as someone who plays 4 times as much as you, he&#039;s likely to win just because he is better. This is completely reasonable in that it works like every other videogame and in fact nearly everything in life.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One problem with an open skilled based game such as UO however is that the freedom is pointless now. Back when UO was the only game on the block, the people who loved to kill monsters killed monsters, the people who loved to craft crafted, the people who loved to talk and hang out chilled outside the brit bank and made my computer cry, and myself and the other PKs killed all of the above. The reason this would never work again is because the people who love to kill monsters are off playing WoW or or some game with raiding in it, killing monsters. The crafters are off playing Luminary or eq2, the socializers are probably playing second life and the PK&#039;s are off playing EvE or Darkfall. In order to get all of these people back in one open world game would involve crafting a game that was better in each of those categories then any other MMO. And Even then PvP might not work because people who hate pvp despise getting killed and the people who love it despise not being able to kill everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting Read Beej, Thanks for pointing it out to me, </p>
<p>I&#39;m a veteran of UO myself and I agree with you that skill based games are inherently more interesting then a gear or level based one. However it also presents some issues that are difficult to address and hence why Developers are likely to avoid producing said games.</p>
<p>The first is ultimate problem is balance. You may or may not be aware but when City of Heroes was originally in development, Cryptic its developers had intended to allow the players to choose any primary power / secondary power combination they wanted. However some combinations as is always the case provided much greater synergy and thus, a more powerful character. They eventually settled on their current system of &quot;classes&quot; where you are say a ranged dps, you can choose from say Fire, Energy Ice and so on blasts. That way, they only need to balance say 4 or 5 things against each other, as apposed to 20+</p>
<p>Then you&#39;ve got UO, where even if there where not classes you basically had classes in as that there where a set number of effective skill combination, and you could only really deviate one skill maybe to remain effective.</p>
<p>The second problem, and just as big in the players and developers eyes is content. If your players aren&#39;t stuck in a virtual arms race of equipment needing that causes them to run Molten Core, BWL, AQ40 and Naxx for  4 hours a day 4 days a week for over a year just to maximize their character, What exactly ARE they going to do. SWG and UO aside MMO&#39;s are designed with very little freedom and variety. Adding Variety takes time, time is money so its easier to make a game where all you do is raid, and to keep you raiding the same content they dangle the gear in front of your face.</p>
<p>Moving onto the subject of Player Time VS Power. You argue that a Person who plays 4 times as much as you shouldn&#39;t be 4 times as powerful as you. I agree with this, I feel sometimes people forget an actual benefit of playing more is that you become physically better at playing the game. </p>
<p>Thus even if you had the same character as someone who plays 4 times as much as you, he&#39;s likely to win just because he is better. This is completely reasonable in that it works like every other videogame and in fact nearly everything in life.</p>
<p>One problem with an open skilled based game such as UO however is that the freedom is pointless now. Back when UO was the only game on the block, the people who loved to kill monsters killed monsters, the people who loved to craft crafted, the people who loved to talk and hang out chilled outside the brit bank and made my computer cry, and myself and the other PKs killed all of the above. The reason this would never work again is because the people who love to kill monsters are off playing WoW or or some game with raiding in it, killing monsters. The crafters are off playing Luminary or eq2, the socializers are probably playing second life and the PK&#39;s are off playing EvE or Darkfall. In order to get all of these people back in one open world game would involve crafting a game that was better in each of those categories then any other MMO. And Even then PvP might not work because people who hate pvp despise getting killed and the people who love it despise not being able to kill everyone.</p>
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		<title>By: Beej</title>
		<link>http://www.professorbeej.com/2009/06/star-wars-old-republic-argument-for.html/comment-page-1#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>Beej</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 19:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://professorbeej.com/2009/06/character-progression-in-star-wars-the-old-republic.html#comment-27</guid>
		<description>@toelSU: That&#039;s exactly what I am saying.  I&#039;m not saying they should be on the same level, no.  The person who invests the most time should have something to show for it, but I think that the current power disparity in MMOs is too great.  I think that a person who doesn&#039;t have the time to spend 8 hours a day should be able to at least experience the same game as a person who does.  The person who plays 8+ hours a day will have an advantage in the game, but not so much so that the person who can play 2 hours will be considered a second-class citizen.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;@Dafinfan13: You said it perfectly with &quot;Perhaps if raiding doesn&#039;t take as much devotion as it currently does in WoW the gear gap would never get that severe.&quot;  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I would be fine with that.  I actually hope that&#039;s the way it happens, if Bioware goes with a gear-based system.  I know there will be levels based on the E3 hands-on demo, but I hope they&#039;re like KOTOR levels where ranks of abilities matter more than looted items.  As long as there are ways for players of different schedules and playstyles able to experience the same game, then I am fine with that.  I am just tired of being left out of a game because I have a professional and personal life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@toelSU: That&#39;s exactly what I am saying.  I&#39;m not saying they should be on the same level, no.  The person who invests the most time should have something to show for it, but I think that the current power disparity in MMOs is too great.  I think that a person who doesn&#39;t have the time to spend 8 hours a day should be able to at least experience the same game as a person who does.  The person who plays 8+ hours a day will have an advantage in the game, but not so much so that the person who can play 2 hours will be considered a second-class citizen.</p>
<p>@Dafinfan13: You said it perfectly with &quot;Perhaps if raiding doesn&#39;t take as much devotion as it currently does in WoW the gear gap would never get that severe.&quot;  </p>
<p>I would be fine with that.  I actually hope that&#39;s the way it happens, if Bioware goes with a gear-based system.  I know there will be levels based on the E3 hands-on demo, but I hope they&#39;re like KOTOR levels where ranks of abilities matter more than looted items.  As long as there are ways for players of different schedules and playstyles able to experience the same game, then I am fine with that.  I am just tired of being left out of a game because I have a professional and personal life.</p>
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		<title>By: Dafinfan13</title>
		<link>http://www.professorbeej.com/2009/06/star-wars-old-republic-argument-for.html/comment-page-1#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>Dafinfan13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 18:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://professorbeej.com/2009/06/character-progression-in-star-wars-the-old-republic.html#comment-26</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re probably correct to assume that Bioware wont be the same as Actiblizzion... If KoToR is the basis I&#039;d be more than happy to stand in the back of my melee spamming push on the enemy with my new Consular who wont even care what crystals are in his lightsaber because it&#039;s just for the defense modifier anyway. Perhaps if raiding doesn&#039;t take as much devotion as it currently does in WoW the gear gap would never get that severe. Allow crafted gear to be equal to the current tier the raiders get but require just as much time and money that raiding does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#39;re probably correct to assume that Bioware wont be the same as Actiblizzion&#8230; If KoToR is the basis I&#39;d be more than happy to stand in the back of my melee spamming push on the enemy with my new Consular who wont even care what crystals are in his lightsaber because it&#39;s just for the defense modifier anyway. Perhaps if raiding doesn&#39;t take as much devotion as it currently does in WoW the gear gap would never get that severe. Allow crafted gear to be equal to the current tier the raiders get but require just as much time and money that raiding does.</p>
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		<title>By: toeISU</title>
		<link>http://www.professorbeej.com/2009/06/star-wars-old-republic-argument-for.html/comment-page-1#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>toeISU</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 18:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://professorbeej.com/2009/06/character-progression-in-star-wars-the-old-republic.html#comment-25</guid>
		<description>So what you&#039;re saying is someone that spends 4 times as much time playing shouldn&#039;t be 4 times more powerful?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what you&#39;re saying is someone that spends 4 times as much time playing shouldn&#39;t be 4 times more powerful?</p>
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		<title>By: Beej</title>
		<link>http://www.professorbeej.com/2009/06/star-wars-old-republic-argument-for.html/comment-page-1#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>Beej</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 18:30:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://professorbeej.com/2009/06/character-progression-in-star-wars-the-old-republic.html#comment-24</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s my problem with it.  There shouldn&#039;t be the ability to two-shot anyone based solely on gear and time-invested.  I think there should be advantages, yes, based on one&#039;s playstyle and habits, but I think that the character itself and the player behind it should count for more than any amount of equipment.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I agree that gear caught up with badge loot at the end of TBC, but that was the main problem: it was the end of TBC.  And it still required hours and weeks of grinding for a &quot;casual&quot; to even attempt to compete with a raider.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I know that time investment is always going to be an MMO mainstay, but I truly hope that Bioware finds a solution that worked as well as UO and SWG had.  WoW proved to me that gear alone is not a way to foster an immersive community because it is too artificial; there needs to be development and progression tied to the character itself. Once I spec my character&#039;s talent points and reach level 80, he&#039;s done, except for gear.  There needs to be something else, and I think that is why a skills-based game is superior.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If TOR finds a way to get everyone the same gear on their own schedule, then I&#039;ll be fine with it.  If they stick to the exponential difference in 2 hour a day and 8+ hour a day players that WoW has, then there will, again, be this kind of disjointed community, which Bioware seems to want to avoid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#39;s my problem with it.  There shouldn&#39;t be the ability to two-shot anyone based solely on gear and time-invested.  I think there should be advantages, yes, based on one&#39;s playstyle and habits, but I think that the character itself and the player behind it should count for more than any amount of equipment.  </p>
<p>I agree that gear caught up with badge loot at the end of TBC, but that was the main problem: it was the end of TBC.  And it still required hours and weeks of grinding for a &quot;casual&quot; to even attempt to compete with a raider.</p>
<p>I know that time investment is always going to be an MMO mainstay, but I truly hope that Bioware finds a solution that worked as well as UO and SWG had.  WoW proved to me that gear alone is not a way to foster an immersive community because it is too artificial; there needs to be development and progression tied to the character itself. Once I spec my character&#39;s talent points and reach level 80, he&#39;s done, except for gear.  There needs to be something else, and I think that is why a skills-based game is superior.  </p>
<p>If TOR finds a way to get everyone the same gear on their own schedule, then I&#39;ll be fine with it.  If they stick to the exponential difference in 2 hour a day and 8+ hour a day players that WoW has, then there will, again, be this kind of disjointed community, which Bioware seems to want to avoid.</p>
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		<title>By: Dafinfan13</title>
		<link>http://www.professorbeej.com/2009/06/star-wars-old-republic-argument-for.html/comment-page-1#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>Dafinfan13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 18:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://professorbeej.com/2009/06/character-progression-in-star-wars-the-old-republic.html#comment-23</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s much potential for this game. While I think it might be nice for somebody who has the same build as my character to almost be on equal ground... If somebody spends eight hours a day playing the game and doing things to improve his/her character I&#039;d expect them to mop the floor with the two hour a day casual. MMO&#039;s have always been time invested = better toon. The problem with WoW was that raiding took far too long and you had to dedicate a huge chunk of your personal life to the game in order to be &quot;uber&quot;. Gear levels caught up between the casuals and normal raiders at the end of the first expansion with the badge systems. However, there are always going to be the hardcore that study each and every boss strategy and theorycraft every aspect of their class. These people aren&#039;t going to want to be on an equal level with those that don&#039;t do the same.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The best bet for people who want to have lives is to hope the hardcore players are kept entertained off on some distant planet and are kept too busy to come back to that quest hub outside Mos Eisley to 2-shot you during your womprat quest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#39;s much potential for this game. While I think it might be nice for somebody who has the same build as my character to almost be on equal ground&#8230; If somebody spends eight hours a day playing the game and doing things to improve his/her character I&#39;d expect them to mop the floor with the two hour a day casual. MMO&#39;s have always been time invested = better toon. The problem with WoW was that raiding took far too long and you had to dedicate a huge chunk of your personal life to the game in order to be &quot;uber&quot;. Gear levels caught up between the casuals and normal raiders at the end of the first expansion with the badge systems. However, there are always going to be the hardcore that study each and every boss strategy and theorycraft every aspect of their class. These people aren&#39;t going to want to be on an equal level with those that don&#39;t do the same.</p>
<p>The best bet for people who want to have lives is to hope the hardcore players are kept entertained off on some distant planet and are kept too busy to come back to that quest hub outside Mos Eisley to 2-shot you during your womprat quest.</p>
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